我们一直在讨论
We've been talking about the question as to whether
永远不死是否值得期待
or not it would be desirable to live forever,
永生是不是件好事
whether immortality would actually be a good thing,
是像我们大家一般认为的那样
as most of us normally presume,
还是像伯纳德·威廉姆斯所说的那样
or whether in fact, as Bernard Williams argues,
它并不值得期待
it would be undesirable.
我们要研究的问题是
The question we turned to was,
尽可能打开你的思路
just let your imagination run free.
不去考虑苟延残喘地延长
Instead of asking what would it be like to continue living a longer
现实生活中那种每况愈下的生活
kind of trajectory that humans have in the real world
你会生病
where you just get sicker
衰老  有气无力
and more and more frail and incapacitated,
不去考虑那样的永生是否有价值
ask yourself not whether immortality of that sort would be valuable,
而是去考虑是否能描述一种
but is it even so much as possible to describe a life
你想永远过下去的生活
that you would want to live forever?
这是我上节课留给你们的问题
That's the question I left you with last time.
我想我已经表明了我的态度
I think I already tipped my cards on this matter.
我倾向于认同威廉姆斯的观点
I'm inclined to agree with Williams.
我认为不管我们如何定义这种生活
I think that no matter how we try to fill in the blank,
那会是个很长的定义
it's a very long blank.
这里关键的一点就是  永生的意思
The crucial point here for us is that immortality means
并不是活很长时间
not just living a very long time
也不是活特别长时间
or even an extraordinarily long time,
而是永远地活下去
but literally living forever.
我觉得这很难
I think it's very difficult,
实际上我觉得根本就不可能
indeed I think it's impossible,
有你希望永远做下去的事情
to think of anything you'd want to do forever.
我有位朋友
I have a friend who once
有一次跟我说他希望永远活着
claimed to me that he wanted to live forever
这样他可以每天吃泰国菜
so that he could have Thai food every day for the rest of,
直到永远
well, the rest of eternity.
我也蛮喜欢泰国菜的
I like Thai food just fine,
但是一想到要
but the prospect of having
日复一日地吃泰国菜
Thai food day after day after day after day
吃上几千  几万  几亿  几兆年
for thousands, millions, billions, trillions of years
就没那么吸引人了
no longer seems an attractive proposal.
看上去倒更像是一场噩梦
It seems like it becomes some kind of a nightmare.
我前面也举过相同的例子
And the same way that I indicated previously
虽然我喜欢吃巧克力
that although I like chocolate--
我爱巧克力
I love chocolate--
但要让我一直不停地
the prospect
of having to eat more and more
不停地吃巧克力
and more and more and more chocolate,
那最后就我就想吐了
eventually the idea becomes a sickening one.
随便举任何一件事
Think of any activity.
你们有些人喜欢玩填字游戏
Some of you may enjoy doing crossword puzzles,
可能每天花上几小时玩玩字谜很有意思
and perhaps doing crossword puzzles a couple hours a day is enjoyable.
但设想让你日复一日地猜字谜
But imagine doing crossword puzzles every day
十年  一千年
for 10 years, 1,000 years,
一万年  一亿年  一兆年
a million years, a billion years, a trillion years.
最后  在我看来
Eventually, presumably, so it seems to me,
你大概会说  "我实在不愿猜字谜了"
you'd end up saying, "I'm really tired of crossword puzzles."
当然  还会有一些你从没见过的
Sure, there'd be some new particular puzzle
新字谜
you hadn't seen before,
但你曾经沧海难为水  你会说
but you'd sort of step up a level and say,
"尽管我没做过这个字谜
"Although I haven't seen this particular one before,
但我以前做的已经太多了
I've seen crossword puzzles before.
万变不离其宗
There's really nothing new under the sun here.
尽管这个字谜的组合方式我没见过
The fact that I haven't seen this particular combination of words
但也引不起我的兴趣"
isn't enough to make it interesting."
当然  填字游戏也不是什么艰深难题
Well, crossword puzzles aren't a very deep subject,
我们也许仍感疑惑
and we might wonder whether or not
如果我们到了
we would do better if we were engaged in
更具挑战性的问题  会不会更有意思呢
something more mentally challenging than that.
这也许会给我带来不一样的体验
This may indicate something unusual about me,
我很喜欢数学
but I rather like math.
花大量时间研究数学问题
And the prospect of having a lot of time to pursue math problems
做深入细致的演算看起来很吸引人
of a richer and deeper sort seems fairly attractive.
但即便如此
Yet even there,
当我想到要永远研究数学
when I imagine an eternity of thinking about math--
或者永远研究哲学
or for that matter, an eternity of thinking about philosophy,
比起数学  显然我更喜欢哲学
which I obviously like even more than math--
这都不是令人向往的生活
the prospect seems an unattractive one.
我想不出自己希望永远干什么
I can't think of any activity I'd want to do forever.
当然  这个说法里有漏洞
Now, of course, that's a bit of a cheat
我们并没说过要永远
because the claim isn't to spend eternity
研究数学而不干任何别的事情
doing math problems and nothing but math problems.
我们并非用50  80  100年的时间
Right now, with our 50, 80, 100 years,
并不是每天都干同一件事
we don't fill our day doing only one kind of activity.
我们
每天事务纷杂
We fill our day with a mixture of activities.
但这对解决问题毫无帮助
But it doesn't really help
晚上吃泰国菜  中午吃中餐
having Thai food for dinner and Chinese for lunch.
或者周一周三周五吃中餐
Or perhaps Chinese on Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays
周六周日吃泰国菜
and Thai on Saturdays and Sundays
每天下午花两个小时研究数学
and spending two hours in the afternoon doing math
早上花三个小时研究哲学
and three hours in the morning doing philosophy.
这样的生活让人向往
That sounds like a pretty pleasant life.
但是
But again,
当你想到永远过这样生活
if you think of the possibility of doing that for all eternity
无法摆脱
and never getting away from it,
无从解放的时候
never being free from it,
我认为  你对永生的美好憧憬
the positive dream of immortality,
就会变成噩梦
I think, becomes a nightmare.
当然  也许我的想象力不够奔放
Well again, maybe I'm not just being creative enough in my imagination.
我过去的一位同事曾描述过
Different former colleague of mine once talked about the prospect of
天堂里神仙般的日子
having a kind of heavenly vision of the divine.
或许那值得永远拥有
Maybe that would be desirable forever.
她描述说  想想当你
And she described it as, think of what it's like to
和一位挚友言语投机
have a really great conversation with a friend
你希望谈话一直继续
that you wish would never end,
除了上帝
except God's
谁也不是如此博学的挚友
this infinitely rich friend
所以这样的谈话值得永远持续
and so the conversation ends up seeming desirable forever.
当然  我可以说这样的话
Well again, I can say the words,
但当我想象这种情形
but when I try to imagine that possibility
认真来看  至少就我个人来讲
and take it seriously, at least speaking personally,
这一点都说不通
it doesn't--it doesn't hold up.
我没有一位朋友
No friend that I've ever talked with is one
我愿意和他永远交谈下去
that I actually would want to spend eternity talking to.
当然  有人可能会说
And it's of course possible to say, well,
只是想象有这样一位朋友
just imagine a friend that
你愿意和他永远交谈下去
you would want to talk through all eternity to.
但问题是
But the whole point is,
我想象不出这种情形
I can't imagine what that would be like.
我尽力去想象一种生活
When I do my best to imagine some kind of existence
它可能令我向往并永远吸引我
that would be desirable or attractive forever,
我想不出来  这简直是场噩梦
it just doesn't work. It becomes a nightmare.
当然  也许我们不用这样
Well again, maybe what we need to do is not so much
想象同样的情形
just imagine the same cycling
一周接着一周不断发生
going through week after week after week,
我们可以拿职业生涯为例
but whole careers.
也许你可以花50年
Maybe you could spend 50 or
或者100年专职研究哲学
100 years pursuing philosophy as your career.
然后花50年或者100年研究数学
And then 50 or 100 years pursuing math as your career.
花50年或100年去旅游
And 50 or 100 years traveling around the world.
花50年或100年去搞艺术
And 50 or 100 years being an artist
画些水彩画  诸如此类
and working on your water colors, or whatever it is.
好了  看上去好像
Well, that certainly seems like
我们能消磨更多的时间
we could probably get more time out of that.
但是  问题的关键在于
But again, the crucial point to remember is
永远的意思是永无尽头
that forever is literally forever.
我想象不出任何一种生活
There's no life that I'm able to imagine
我希望永远过下去
for myself that's one that I would want to take on forever.
当然  你可能会说应该有些生物
Well, you might say surely there could be creatures
会希望永生
that would want to live forever,
会享受永生
that would enjoy an eternal existence.
也许你说得不错
And I think that's probably right.
科学家已经做过如下的实验
So scientists have learned how to do the following.
有一些...
There are certain--
你可以在老鼠大脑中植入一个电极
you can take a rat and put an electrode in his brain.
如果电极位置正确
If you put the electrode in just the right place,
那么当电极通电
then when the electrode gets turned on,
它就会刺激老鼠的快乐中枢
it stimulates the pleasure center in the rat's brain
使它获得一阵快感
and it gets a little burst of pleasure,
很强烈的一阵快感
a pretty intense burst of pleasure.
实际上  你可以把电极和导线
And in fact, you can take the wire, the electrode,
接到一个控制杆上  然后教老鼠
and hook it up to a lever and teach the rat
推动控制杆
how to push the lever
使它自己获得快感
and give itself a little burst of pleasure.
现在  老鼠会怎么做呢
Now, what happens to rats when you do this?
或许  不出所料
Well, maybe unsurprisingly,
它们会不停地推控制杆
what they do is, they keep pressing the lever.
实际上  它们不吃不喝地推控制杆
Indeed, they press the lever and they'll stop eating,
它们不再有交配的欲望
they're no longer interested in sex.
它们只是不停地
They basically just give themselves
使自己获得快感
this little orgasmic burst of pleasure--
直到它们死去
well, until they die.
当然  死去对老鼠是件坏事
Now well, of course, it's too bad the rat dies,
但如果我们假设老鼠能够永生
but if we imagine the rat not being mortal--
也许你能给它静脉点滴
perhaps you've got it on IV
补充营养
so it's getting its nutrients that way--
那么很容易想象老鼠
then perhaps it's easy to imagi
ne the rat
会永不停歇地推控制杆
simply pressing the lever forever,
使自己获得快感
getting this intense burst of pleasure
永生永世心满意足地做这一件事
and being content to do that for all eternity.
想象老鼠这么做很容易
So if it's so easy to imagine that for the rat,
为什么不能想象我们自己呢
why not for us?
我们为什么不能如法炮制呢
Why not just put our own orgasmatron hat on with a little--
现在不是老鼠了  而是人类
not rat lever, but now human lever--
控制人脑内电极产生刺激
with the electrodes stimulating our own brains
使我们获得强烈的快感
so that we get this intense burst of pleasure?
我们假设这种快感永不衰竭
And just imagine this intense burst of pleasure going on forever.
还有什么比这更令人神往呢
What could be more desirable than that?
当我想到这件事的时候
Except, when I think about that,
我也请你们思考一下
and I invite you to think about that,
我不觉得这番景象有多吸引人
I don't actually find that an especially attractive prospect.
请注意
Mind you,
我并不是在说
it's not that I think
这种刺激不能使我们永远获得快感
we couldn't be stimulated to get pleasure forever.
我是在说  人和老鼠是有区别的
It's that there's something that distinguishes humans from rats.
当我...  我当然会非常享受
When I--No doubt I would enjoy it.
无疑  你在很长一段时间内也会非常享受
And no doubt you would enjoy it for a very long time.
但我认为过了一段时间  会出现...
But I imagine that after a period, there'd be this--
人类有审视自身经历的能力
Well, humans have this ability to look down on their experiences,
或者说跳出圈外
or step back from their experiences,
sort of there是什么意思自我评价的能力
and assess them.
即使现在  我坐在这里讲课
Even now, as I'm sitting here lecturing to you,
我的一部分
part of me,
因为我正在提这个问题
because of this very question that I'm raising,
我的一部分意识在想  课堂效果如何
is thinking about how's the lecture going,
我讲清楚了应该讲清楚的内容了吗
and am I going to get through what I need to get through,
如此这般
and so forth and so on.
我们可以反省自己正在做的事
We can reflect on our first order or base level experiences.
现在  假设你在快乐制造仪里
Now, imagine then that you're in the pleasure-making machine.
过了一会儿  你的部分意识会问
After a while, part of you is going to start asking,
"我怎么觉得这感觉和昨天一样
"Huh, say, it feels the same as it was yesterday,
而且和前天  大前天也一样
and the day before that and the day before that.
我估计明天还是这感觉
I imagine this is how it's going to feel tomorrow,
后天也是  大后天也是"
and the day after that and the day after that."
那么最终你会开始

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